I have said before how mages go from Superman to Lois Lane. There are other things that make a mage such a plus and minus. I was with my vassal Balash on the island. I had to stop to buff. After watching me toss spell after spell, with revit and stam to mana a bunch, he said, "I'm sure glad I'm not a mage."
Later on I had good luck with a Mangler. Got every spell first shot and good damage. Mangler fell very quickly. Balash was in shock. The stared at the body for a second and said, "Melee sucks."
For one on one a mage is very strong. Add one more into the mix and he might have more trouble. Of course a melee has trouble with more than one spell caster. Even one that chain casts can be big trouble. A melee shines when fighting lots of stuff at or below his level or any not casting monster. A melee really shines when with a support mage.
My mage can take a Vapor golem, Altered Drudge or Red Bandy with little trouble. A bit of bad luck will kill him but he wins more often than not. I don't see many melee's fighting them. In fact you see very few pure melee on the island at all.
I guess Turbine felt the same because they really messed over mages with the new islands. I have heard of mages with 350 skill not being able to land a spell. That is ridicules. It is bad enough that hollow weapons were put in the hands of monsters but now this. I expect Fist de Yuma will love the new island but for Fist de Mage, it might as well not exist.
Speaking of Superman to Lois Lane I had an interesting experience. I was going to Mayoi to get a new vassal. I had just killed a Vapor golem. I knew I had weakness and slow on me. Of course I also had a lot of other de-buffs.
I did not think much of it as the worse I see on the run to the web maze is Mosswarts. I was running passed some prowlers and at full crawl (burdened and slow) when a prowler got a hit on me. "Prowler smashes you for 48 damage." Ouch.
Now Fist de Yuma might have a hard time taking a Vapor golem but no amount of de-buffs are going to make him that weak, even with no armor. Even Olthoi have a hard time hitting him.
Archer buff
Cliff Bowman really loves the new speed. I have gone from moving like cold molasses to a 12 year old on a sugar high. I did a test in the Citadel to see how much better it works. It is much better. Before I could get killed before I finish off three lugies. Now I kill them much quicker and three are no problem.
Of course getting mobbed is still a danger. I was jumped in the hallway by seven or eight and did not last long. My biggest problem was the arrow burn. I went through 200 greater AP's in 15 minutes.
After running out of arrows I switched back to UA. In the jumping room I was attacked by as many lugies as killed me before. With the shield I was able to kill enough of them to get away. So over all there is still balance.
I was told that the nest was packed with Archers. I was not playing Fist de Yuma for a few days so I did not see it. When I did go there were no archers around. I'm guessing they found the same thing I did in the Citadel. Yes, you can fight but you are still better off outside.
Vassal run to AB
I have a vassal named Syarzeth who plays off and on. Lately he is playing a lot. His main skill is crossbow. We are finding that the love given an Archer was not given to a Crossbow person. I can understand crossbow being a bit slower but this is a little much.
Anyway he was not at AB and that is the place to be these days. In a way this is a return for him. When I first met Syarzeth he was asking for help in Awric. Seems he had been on a three month break and logged in the Direlands.
He returned just after they made the Direlands truly dire. He died quick and need help getting his stuff back. He died a few more times trying to get to the body. I was able to get those bodies for him but the first one was a loss.
I replaced Syarzeth lost gear with items off my mule. I did not see him for a few months. I got a message from him asking to be my vassal when he started playing again.
We met at Mayoi and ran to the portal after Mage buffed him with level VI protects. My plan was for us to head south to the beach and run to AB from there. It is a long run but safer from a recovery point of view. If the worse happens the body is not hard to find. There is also zero chance of getting trapped in a dead end.
I led the way. Lot of spells flying and dots chasing. I was worried a few times because I would see a mass of orange with his little white in the middle of it. The monsters focusing me protected him. When we stopped one time I said, "How you doing?" He said, "Fine, your taking all of the abuse."
We got there with little damage and a lot of thrills. I don't recommend that run for everyone but if your fast and have a few hit points, try it.
Fire Stone
I was hunting the island with Mage when I got a tell from The Saint. He wanted to know how to get the fire stone. Before the last stone quest (Electrial) I broke my fire stone putting it into a weapon. I figured the two of use could do that quest. He could get his and I could replace mine.
I logged Fist de Yuma and grabbed a subway portal. I headed over to the mountain shortcut portal. I met The Saint there. We ran to the bandit castle portal from there. The last time I ran to the Crator I did it from Holtburg. I wanted to see if this was shorter. (Holtburg is better.)
From there we ran west until we hit the Crator. Took a bit of searching to find the way up but this time I knew what to look for. From there we ran to the Vault. The Saint then told me he did not have fire protection!
I wish he had said that before as I have some IV and V fire protection on a mule in Awric. I was hoping to find a mage that could toss some protection on him. There were a few people outside the Vault but no mages.
We buffed up and I replace the acid stone in my claw with the cold stone. I'm getting more motes and Damien is finding a bunch while hunting Metro. My motes are coming off the Vapor golems. Need 32 motes to get my full set.
The Saint and I charged in. I was hoping I could remember the route from my one trip here. I was not getting lost so I guess it stuck in my memory.
We got to the first jump and I told The Saint to jump to the chain. He did and I tried to follow. I hit the chain to hard and bounced off.
Now I had to run back. I was lucky as there were others in the vault who had missed the jump. They had cleared it a bit. Either that or they reduced the number of monsters here.
I got back and made the first jump ok. Second jump I lagged and did not even come close. The Saint either decided to join me or missed as well. The two of us ran back. First jump ok, second jump ok for me but The Saint missed.
I waited for him and he sent me a tell saying he was lost. I was about to jump down when he said "Never mind, I found the way."
He made the second jump this time. Third jump was no problem as we both had our timing down now. After this we only had one problem spot. The Saint missed the long jump. I jumped down to help him find the way out but he had already found it.
I made the next jump but got into lag again. I was bouncing up and down until I did a jump after hitting the floor. I ran back and this time made sure I jumped harder.
The Saint and I had little trouble with the Infernal. He took on a Flama and I attacked the Infernal. He finished the Flama off and helped me.
Last two jumps are scary looking but we had no problem with them. Found a group in the stone room but they were not getting the stone. Just fighting I guess. The Saint got his stone then I got mine. We both ported out happy.
Next week we plan to take on the Frost stone.
Vapor golems
Mage gets a rush fighting Vapor golems. The loot is not the greatest but they are worth 33k in xp. Sometimes I get lucky. Yield VI, Cold Voln VI, Frost bolt V x2 and death golem.
That is the rare one. Most of them are a yelling and pounding on keys affair. Goes like this. Yield VI, resist. Fire voln V hits me. Yield VI, resist. Fire ball rushes towards me. I do a slide to get out of the way. Yield VI hits. Frost VI voln, fizzle. Frost VI fizzle. (300 skill and I'm fuzzling.) Golem charges. Frost VI voln hits. Flame hits me for 78 points. Frost bolt V, resist. Bashed for 15 points. Frost bolt V hits for 178 damage. Impel V hits me. Stamina to mana. Bashed by Vapor for 30 damage. Frost bolt V, resist. Flame hits and I have 3 hit points and 100 mana. Frost bolt V, resist. Flame voln V replaces Flame Voln V. Frost bolt V stops Vapor Golem cold. Battle ends with 3 hit points and 50 mana.
Buffed skills are; Life 300, Creature 303, War 285.
So much to see.
I took a portal at AB hoping it was the subway. I got a download so I know it was not the subway. It was a typical dungeon. Inside I met some players and we talked a bit. I decided to check out the place.
First thing I ran into was Mosswarts. Nothing bad except them were a whole lot of them. After them were an even larger group with some Shamans tossed in. The Shamans were able to do a little damage on me but nothing I couldn't handle.
I decided to stop playing with the Mosswarts and just run through. Hit a door I needed to pick. Now I was fighting a never-ending horde of Bandies. Finally fought to a big room with a Captain and some Raiders. I had not taken any damage but was running out of stamina potions.
I mean this place is never ending. I'm killing bandies in one to two blows and they are spawning faster than I can kill them. I got the door shut and was able to clear the room. The next hall had a door. Behind the door was a large orange mass of bandies.
I felt this place would be great for a large party of low levels. Even with killing a mountain of bandies I was getting next to nothing in xp. Waste of stamina potions. I would have liked to see what the end was like. If like every other place I have been to it would have been a portal out.
Crystal
On MT we had true drama in the destruction of our crystal. Here is the story. A group of players got together to defend the last crystal. It started with a call to arms. The last line is where the name first comes up.
We, Hiko Seijuro, Impreza, and Gusto King would like to both inform you that, whatever the coming events, be it victory or defeat, the path to victory was opened by two level 25 warriors.
Later we see
In the depths below the ruined Cathedral of Ithaenc, Gusto Kings party make the grievous error of shattering the last Soul Crystal! The patterns of magic are rent asunder.
So the crystal was shattered by the people who were to defend it! It seems that some people left for comps. Others were off fighting. This left Gusto King and Crossbow Lamer guarding the Soul Crystal. They back-stabbed the defenders by using that opportunity to destroy the Soul Crystal and release BaelZharon.
I felt at this point that it was a great story. Everyone hates Gusto King. (Some transferring that hate to RL, which is very wrong.) As in every good novel there is a villain to be hunted. Gusto King became that villain.
If the crystal had to be destroyed this was a great way to do it. Stories of Gusto King being hunted while friends rush to his defense would make a great PK event.
Unfortunately it has turned into a bitching contest instead. Some want to take RL baseball bat to him. Stupid people. It is a game. Gusto King and Crossbow Lamer have created a great story. Now go kill them or defend them. The evil players applaud their cunning. The good players punish them. Take this opportunity to make a better game.
I'm looking forward to seeing the results of this. Those that want to drive him from the game, get a life. Those that want to respond by hunting him, go for it! KOS him but do not KOS/L him. Same with Crossbow Lamer. KOS/L is for looters. If he has not looted anyone, keep it clean. Remember this is a game and not a hate-fest. Play it for the enjoyment of it.
For the Darktie lamers who will lambast us for our lack of looting, go away. We play a different game. We have a little respect for others and our average age is above 12.
Funny kids
I'm talking with someone and said I'm an OG mage. I get a tell from someone who said they had a question. He had overheard my saying I was an OG and wanted some information. I said I would be glad to help.
The question was; I just downloaded acmacro and I need to know the best setup for it. Shisssss. I told him I never macro'ed and had no idea how to set up the program.
Another reason for me to hate macroing. Now everyone assumes I macroed to level because so many others do. Bad enough I have to turn off my sound card to learn spells. Every mana pool is stuffed with computer run players tossing noisy spells all day.
Best mage template
I know there will be disagreements but I feel there are only two really good templates now. Both require a lot of effort and pain.
First is the OG mage. This is Life/Creature spec'd and war at level 26. So at level 26 is it complete and ready to fight. A great template for the Island. So good that turbine is making monsters attacking this template.
An OG mage will start his attack with Yield VI. This is the main reason for Spec'ing Creature. One monster will toss magic resistance VI as soon as this hits. An OG's next spell is a Voln. This monster will toss protection to counter that. Lastly an OG will use drains to soften up the monster and gain back health/mana. This new monster is immune to drain. Kind of lame to make a monster just to counter a template.
The next, and in my mind the best, is a Life/War spec'd mage. The pain if this template is that it is not complete until level 50. But a high war and life will insure that it is ready for all but the magic immune monsters.
I have a vassal who is starting a War/Life. I had mage spend some time with him the other day. He was on the beaches of Eastham hunting. I buffed his self/focus/war with level VI spells and tossed a bunch of protection on him.
With this he was able to take down golems, sharks and other monsters. My goal was to get him to level 7. This is were a War/Life gets mana conversion. After getting mana conversion a War/Life can do much better.
While doing this a fighter came along. I started tossing heals, Imperiling and tossing buffs on him. There were enough monsters to go around so why not. As is typical I received a reward for this. As he was leaving he dropped a cracked shard in me.
Staff and a mage
My mage has staff skill. While on the beach I decided to try it out. With a starting coordination of 10 he will never be a world beater. However, with level VI buffs he is not bad.
After getting that big hit the other day from a drudge I decided to be safe and buff a bit before running to the web maze. An adult Reedshark got on my tail. Decided to see how good the staff was. One hit, dead Reedshark. Humm, not had.
This was posted on the COD. It is good to know that there are many more good players in AC than bad.
Jon The Slicer
This evening I was running on the new islands across the bridge to island with the Diamond Golem. I was going on a corpse recovery so I was un-buffed and had no protects and little armor on. A Shallow Devourer was chasing me across the bridge and to prevent from dragging it onto a bunch of un-buffed mages I turned to engage it and yelled "Help Please no buffs" what happened next is truly amazing:
Heals started pouring in. At least 4 other people threw me one or more heals of level 3 or greater. The devourer would have killed me three times over as I was nearly fighting it naked. Then a few of the mages hit it with various imperils and vulns of various levels and after that I killed it pretty quickly.
When I yelled help I meant for someone to come help me kill it but instead I received tons of heals and de-buffs on my opponent. These players went out of their way to make my naked conquest of this shallow possible. The shallow was only level 59 and it was needless to say a small event but to me it represents something far greater. It shows that there are still good people out there and that they are in abundance. By engaging it instead of dragging it I did them a small favor, in exchange they made it all possible. It was unspoken cooperation between complete strangers and a reason just to blow off those few who seem to ruin it for all of us with there poor behavior. I hope other people have and will continue to share experiences like this because it is the heart of an MMORPG and especially Asherons Call.
NewsGroup tales.
Everyone should subscribe to the asherons call newsgroup. It is active and helpful. Here are a few tales posted there.
I'm guessing the mass of melee lamers have moved on to cause grief at other places. The Citadel might become a better place now.
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Strange thing to post about, but I wanted to say something, in hopes that maybe someone might see this message, and know Bo Myst or her Monarchy.
My patron, Lin Tol Di (thank you as well!) talked me into going to the Qalabar Lugian Citadel, seeing that I was level 17 now, and could take on a signal Lugian myself. He told me what to expect the day before, people see a Lugian and attack it, there is no waiting, they just go for it. No big deal, enough XP to go around. So I went to Qalabar, but never made it to the Citadel.
The next day (two days ago) I went into the Citadel for my first time. And boy is that place neat. Some Lugian ran up to me and a few others in the first room, and started to swing, never paying attention to me, and was quickly killed. I waited, it respawned, but it was slow, and there wasnt enough XP in killing just one, with the help of others. So I pushed on, going up some ramp to face Two Lugians, swing, hit, hit, hit, swing, swing, swing, die. And thats how it went for a bit. Until I stuck to the first room, and the two or so Lugians that spawned in there.
Then I got the bright idea of asking people for help: Where is a good place for a swordsmen in here? Any tips as to what to do to survive in here? Ect. Well two people were kind enough to answer, and Bo Myst took me back to that ramp, where I died (I got my stuff.) and then into that near circle of a room, and into the hallway where the mass of Lugians spawn and run into (theres a good group gathered there.) And helped me out for awhile. I died, alot. But made it back each time, with help. Thank you Bo Myst, I now no longer stand at the front of the hallway, and to any side. Since then I have yet to die in there.
Yesterday my Patron logged on, Lin Tol Di, and began to help me, showing me where the Gigas are, and the chest. I killed a few, and died a few more times. Then we found another room, if you know the Qalabar citadel, then you know there is a fork in the main hallway, if you go right, you get to the ramp, and the chest, left will take you to a small room, with a nice slower spawn of Lugians. Best part is, not as many people, thus more xp. Buffed, I felt like I could clear the room. (I know I couldnt, since buffed two of the Lugians took me out.)
But in that room, people are friendly, helpful (a heal there, and so on.) And willing to share (someone found a okay tower shield, I believe 100 AL, and handed it to me, not bad.) So unlike what Ive heard.
Bo Myst was very helpful, and risked herself to help me out, the people in the first hallway were sharing healing kits, and were generally friendly. The room with the chest, total strangers helped me get my body back, and get out of there alive. And of course that last room I was in, people are kind, and helpful. (And also shared what they had, and thought others needed.)
Wish I remembered everyones name, but I just want to thank those that I met in the Citadel the last few days: Youve all been great. Its a truly wonderful place. Also very neat to look at the full and see it covered with dead Lugians (and their loot! My god, I need never loot another creature, or buy a healing kit.)
-Seamus, aka
Hisba Nasab.
__________
I truly hate going to BSD now. Mostly because of the type of people it attracts. Nevertheless good stories come out of there.
__________
Well, I managed to do it. I now have one of every monster mask, except the Virindi mask. I guess technically, Im missing the new look for the Olthoi Helm as well, but I dont really see that as a "mask" per se, since the mask makers dont have anything to do with it.
Thanks for the suggestions for places to hunt for Banderling Captains. They sounded very similar to the area that I had been hunting already, which were the woods to the south of the Black Death Catacombs, far to the northeast. So I decided to stick with my original hunting grounds.
I ran back and forth, looking for Captains. Any time I saw one, I would size up the situation; if the Banderlings seemed to be alone, Id jump right in. Otherwise, Id run past, far enough to let the nearby Tuskers, Stalkers, and Lurkers to settle down, so I could return and take out the Captains.
I would also take out the occasional Fragment I saw, and of course, I couldnt help sharpening my sword on the spine of a Tusker or Drudge now and again. But mostly I was trying to stay focused on the goal of killing the most Captains in as little time as I could. And sure enough, one finally yielded a head intact enough to be crafted into a mask! I dont know exactly how many Captains I killed before finding it, but it was MANY! Probably upwards of 50, or more. Probably fewer than 75, and almost certainly fewer than 100. Anyway, I will be very happy if I never have to look at another Banderling Captain again. Disgusting, weak creatures. It amazes me that of all the Banderlings, it is the Captains that yield the heads desirable for mask making. Must be the pampered skin, soft from a lifetime of ordering the real muscle around. I swear, half the time I had to hold back on my swing, just avoid falling through the weak Captain as I cleaved him in half in one blow!
I did also obtain a Tusker Mask. My patron was kind enough to introduce me to one of the Black Spawn Den dungeons, far in the northwest of the Direlands this one was.
I gather that my first experience there was typical. Fast, furious action. Swarms of Tuskers everywhere, mayhem as fighter and mage alike strove to keep the beasts at bay. I even got to see my first skimmer in action; I was a bit puzzled at all these corpses lying around, looting rights belonging to a person nowhere to be found. How could one person do so much damage, and yet be long gone when the battle was finished? My patron explained the "how" to me...he and I are both puzzled, alike, as to the "why", in a land of honor and bravery.
In addition to seeing my first Tusker Slave, and Tusker Guard, I came across my first Virindi. First, we stumbled across a lone Virindi Servant. Then later, a Servant in the same room with a Virindi Master. Guarded by Tuskers of course. With my patron along, the Tuskers were no danger, especially if he and I found a good corner to stand in. He only asked that I let each Tusker live long enough for him to drain it of its Stamina.
The Virindi are another matter, however. As with all spell-casting monsters, these are nothing to be taken lightly. When you have Bludgeon Vulnerability cast on you, it doesnt take a Tusker to permanently deform
your girlish figure. A Shock Wave spell will do it just as well. I was hit by more than 80 points in a single spell! My patron was killed, but fortunately had managed to weaken the Master before his demise, and I was able to cut him to shreds. The Servant had gotten no such weakening treatment from my patron, but he wasnt wise of the ways of the sword, and fell as easily.
Descending deeper and deeper into the dungeon, we finally came across a large room that appeared to contain an endless supply of Drudge Stalkers and Raveners. I thought that the Mountain Halls were crowded with them, but that place is a ghost town compared to here.
Our first attempt ended in failure. We were unprepared, and disorganized, and the Drudges have learned too much about magic. In the close quarters, a fighter learns of a War spell by noticing that he is on the verge of death. No streak of fire or blades to alert you, the Drudges are right next to you. We died.
However, later on, a fellow allegiance member arrived. A formidable archer, he has fought alongside my patron and myself many times in the past, and we looked forward to his help. A bit on the "throw caution to the wind" side, but a brave man, and true shot. The three of us returned to exact our revenge (and gather our belongings :) ). When we finally made it back there, someone had already dispatched most of the remaining Drudges, and there was little fighting left to be done. So we picked up our lost items, and did a little more Tusker hunting.
But we returned before too long, to a full spawn of Stalkers and Raveners. This battle was epic. Only small bits of our previously-agreed-upon strategy remained, as we struggled to balance our life with their deaths.
No sooner would one of us find ourselves making a dent in the onslaught, than another would find themselves at the brink of death, needing to retreat a bit to effect a heal. Even my patron, who can drain the Drudges of their Stamina and convert it directly into his own Health was having trouble keeping up with the damage from the War spells.
Just as the press of the Drudges seemed to slacken a bit, a few more would arrive from below to join in. This went on for what seemed like hours! Though, of course it was probably only ten minutes or so at the most. When the final Drudge fell, we three were at the point of near collapse, with only the strong walls of the Den to support us. But satisfied we were. We had returned to avenge our own deaths!
What remained in the room? Well, before too long, we discovered...Virindi! At least one Master, and several Servants. With my patron Imperiling each Virindi, and them wasting mana casting War spells at him, not even in direct line of sight, the first couple of Virindi turned out to not be too difficult, even the Master. Like many of the other spell-casting monsters, Virindi seem to be much better at the magical arts than the physical.
I did kill the Master, while our good archer continued to work on the Servants around. They apparently reached an agreement, and discontinued their interest in our patron, choosing instead of focus their efforts on me and our archer. Several times during the battle, my Health was precariously low, and I had to run into one of many alcoves in the room, to hide from the War spells while I healed myself.
Unfortunately, our archer, bringing somewhat of a berserkers attitude into the fight, stood his ground. He did die in that battle. And after our great triumph over the Drudges, too!
However, he wasnt slowed much. In fact, he arrived back in that very room, before we had finished the last Servant! He calmly cleaned up his corpse, as if he had not a care in the world, as I dealt the final blow to the final Virindi. We allowed him his moment of grace, but he'll get his share of grief back at the pub! :)
For the numbers people:
Sword is a 6-12 Simi, with 7% attack and 8% defense bonus built-in. Sword skill buffs to around 250, give or take depending on how the buffing is done. Melee Defense to around 220.
I fought with a few different spell combinations, all with reasonable success. The best set-up was the full-blown set from my patron, which he could afford as long as it was just the two of us. Level VI Armor/Bludgeon Protect, plus Level VI Impen/Bludgeon Bane on my gauntlets, coat, tunic, and shield. In addition, Level V Item spells on the Sword (the usual four). Protected in this way, I could generally just keep swinging, and eventually a Tusker would die.
When our archer friend came along, I had to limit the spells I obtained from my patron, and do most of the buffing myself. I started out trying to emulate his level of protection, only with Level IV spells (the level I can cast myself). This worked okay, but was very expensive mana-wise; by the time I was finished, I had little time left on the first spells I had cast. Perhaps only half of the original time.
So I tried a compromise. The shield has Impen V built-in, so I was already skipping the Impen spell on that. I decided to skip Impen on the tunic and gauntlets, as well as the Bludgeon Bane on the tunic (since AL0 without the Impen). Still used the Level IV Item spells on the sword, naturally.
Even when I was buffing things mostly myself, I still got four Level VI spells from my patron: Armor, Bludgeon Protect, Rejuvenation, and Sword Mastery. Actually, now that I think about it, Rejuvenation was only Level V. Still helped a lot. :)
However, what really made the difference was the fact that my patron was able to rid each Tusker of half its Health in one shot, then Imperil it. And later, I convinced him to cast a Vulnerability III spell, to help reduce their Melee Defense as well; that helped a bit, but I wouldnt say it totally tipped the scales.
Based on that experience, I would say that the numbers Ive seen here before sound about right. A buffed attack skill of 300 should do nicely, resulting in very few evasions, and a buffed Melee Defense of 250 or so should reduce the need for strong armor. That said, theres no excuse for going in without suitable protection, as a single blow to a chink in ones armor could spell death.
If you dont have high attack and defense bonuses from your weapon, of course a higher skill would be required. The more than 20% bonus I was getting amounts to 40-50 points increase in my Sword and Melee Defense skills.
I guess what really surprised me is the relatively low Magic Defense Tuskers seem to have. My goodness! My patron wasnt worried at all about resists. Probably got one once in awhile, but he basically treated the Tuskers as living mage batteries. My patron is only two levels higher than I am; I dont know what his magic skill levels are exactly, but hes only just barely casting Level VI spells...still sticks with Level Vs in battle. These Tuskers are apparently very weak to magic...maybe common knowledge among mages, but it was news to me.
And of course, what everyone knows, at least from rumor...the XP is amazing. Our deaths were almost meaningless, as we could work off the penalty with a handful of Tuskers. In my case, sometimes having to battle them without key equipment made it harder, but my patron rarely lost anything of import...he carries little other than spell components and a robe. The mana charges are what get lost when he dies. Nevertheless, even with a vitae penalty, if one is careful, working the vitae penalty off just isnt hard at all, assuming you are at least nominally capable of fighting there.
Sorry for the length...stream of consciousness or something like that...what can I say, its late?
Pete (or is it Redheart?)
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